The Laravel Podcast

The Laravel Podcast is brought to you by Tighten,

your friendly neighborhood Laravel experts.

Check us out at tighten.com

and also by other sponsors you will hear about later in the episode.

Hey, and welcome back to Laravel Podcast
Season 7.

I'm your host, Matt Stauffer, CEO of
Tighten.

And in this season, I'm joined every
episode by a member of the Laravel team.

And today I'm talking to somebody that you
very likely know from the internet,

but not usually as a member of the Laravel
team.

Now, if you are following up with
everything that's going on at Laracon

or any latest announcements, you probably
already know that Aaron is a member

of the Laravel team. But when I'm
recording it today,

he's not even there yet. And nobody but me
and him and a few people

at Laravel actually know about this.

So Aaron.

Aaron Francis, the new VP of marketing at
Laravel would you say hi to

the people and tell everybody a little
about what you are going to

be doing at Laravel when you actually
start?

Surprise. ~ yeah.

~ my name is Aaron Francis.

I am, ~ I guess as you're listening to
this,

I am the VP of marketing and community at
Laravel,

which is weird to say

Name and claim it.

because, you know, I'm not right now as
we're recording,

but in like four short days, I will have

Wow.

my first day at Laravel Holdings
Incorporated.

Wow.

So yeah, a lot, you know, a lot to cover.

~ but just like super high level.

~ I am coming in ~ to fill the vacant VP
of marketing spot.

And so there's a full there's a full ~
highly qualified team of,

you know, ~ contributors and execution
people,

and I'm coming in to help kind of like
lead and guide

some of the high level messaging and how
we position Laravel and that kind of
stuff.

So I am extremely excited.

~ you know, I would tell you more about
what I've been doing,

but I haven't started yet. But I have lots
of ideas and I know I know where we're

Good. Yeah.

headed, so we can talk about

any of that.

I love that. And I I do want to talk
because you mentioned marketing and
community,

which I wasn't even familiar about.

So I want to talk about that. But before
we get there,

we're not allowed to talk that because the
first question that we always

ask is what is the story of you coming to
Laravel?

And you have a a storied history of your
public sharing

of your journey as a programmer,

as an entrepreneur, as a creator.

But not everybody has followed all of it.

Not everybody

listens to your wonderful podcast,

Mostly Technical. And if they don't,

they absolutely should. ~ not everybody
has trailed,

you know, tracked what you've been doing
prior to then.

So if somebody doesn't know the Aaron
Francis story,

can we start with the Aaron Francis story
and then lead into how

did you transition from your most recent
venture to actually coming

to work at Laravel?

Yeah, totally. I'll I'll breeze through
some of the old stuff.

I come I come by, you know, PHP and
Laravel pretty honestly.

I started when I was like twelve or
thirteen using

Right.

PHP. Picked up Laravel, I think,

around the four dot something series.

So I I wanna say that's like twenty
thirteen that I picked up Laravel

for the first time. so been in the Laravel
game for

Goodness gracious, 13 years now in the PHP
game for 20,

~ which makes me thou sound a thousand
years old.

and then as far as like my career,

it ~ it has been a varied career,

~

Mm-hmm.

which I think actually serves me pretty
well.

I got my start as a big four tax
accountant.

So I worked at Ernst Young and I was an
accountant.

Very sexy.

I

Am a former CPA. I did get

Mm-hmm.

my license and then was like, this sucks.

I'm out of here. ~ so I lasted one year
and then went to be

a software developer with no
qualifications whatsoever,

and it's worked out fine so far.

most recently, so I did a like two-year
stint at a database company called

Planet Scale. ~ and then for the past two
and a half years,

I've been fully independent. And so I've
been

Doing ~ database education, selling
desktop apps,

AI education, all kinds, all kinds of
stuff,

honestly. ~

All kinds of things. Yeah.

just all over the place. And so that's
been going,

I mean, that's been going well.

Like I've put, you know, I've got f four
kids and a wife who works very hard

but does not make any money, and I've
managed to survive.

And so like it's been working great.

Yeah. Yeah.

the downside is it's just it's very
stressful,

as you know, running a business.

It's incredible.

Incredibly stressful. ~ and so,

you know, I've I've been doing this solo
thing for a while.

~ and then most recently,

Laravel did a roadshow in Dallas,

which is where they like

Mm-hmm.

go around and demo stuff and Taylor's
there.

And before the roadshow, Taylor reached
out,

because this was just after the previous
VP,

Cynthia, left. ~ he reached out and was
like,

hey man, we need you. And I was like,

what are talking about?

Ha.

It was like, you know, Cynthia's gone.

We need you to be VP of marketing.

And I I was like, what are you talking
about,

man? ~ and so, you know, he gave me the
pitch.

~ and then in Dallas we we talked about it
some more,

because that's where I live. ~ so we
talked about it some more.

~ and it just like everything just felt
great.

I mean, he gave me the the reason he was
thinking about.

hiring me or wanted to hire me because of
course I'm like,

brother, I've never been a director of
marketing.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, what are we talking about here?

and, you know, he recently did a podcast
with you where he's talking about kind

of getting getting his edge or his mojo
back and like feeling feeling like

he can make his own like make his own
calls and he doesn't have to rely on,

you know, the quote unquote professionals
in his words.

And I feel like this is maybe a part of
that where he's just like

Yeah.

We need somebody that's been in the game
to talk,

like who knows the community, who knows
the products,

who knows the space to to come and and
help us.

Because like the people on my team,

I can't do what they do. I have like
they're they are way more qualified

to do the job that they're doing than I
am.

I can't do it. I have no idea.

They're giving me all these acronyms and
I'm like,

I don't know what that means. but I think
what I can do is offer like

a cohesive and coherent vision.

for where we should go, how we should talk
about things,

ideas for how we can reach people.

And so I think that that is gonna be my
mandate coming in.

Yeah. And I I want to talk about that
mandate in a bit,

but I want to kind of stay back with ~ the
early age of Aaron.

You have a lot of experiences that have
led you to

be a broadly capable person that had you
just been

a programmer, just been an entrepreneur,

just been a CPA, just even been somebody
training in marketing,

they would not necessarily have all kind
of given you the level of breadth that

you have. How do you even tell people what
you do?

Are you do you talk about being an
educator,

a programmer,

I

an entrepreneur like what's

I always start with that's a good
question,

~ which kind of like sets the table of
guys,

Yeah. Yes.

this is about to get weird. ~

right now, depending on who right now,

depending on who I talk to, I'll either go
with ~ software developer

or developer educator. Though that's
probably depending on the audience

and you know how impressive I want to
sound,

that that's probably what I would say.

but I have been I've been a CPA.

I've been a marketing data analyst at a
public company.

I've been a CTO and COO at a services
company.

I've been a developer educator.

Now I'm independent and you know,

I've been a line programmer just like in
in the business.

And so yeah, I think all of it is kind of
instructive for where I'm at now.

I mean, running running your own business
gives you this whole other side of

trade-offs and pragmatism and just this
experience of like w

if I don't sell, I can't eat.

And so there's a there's there's just
things you learn doing that.

But then going back to COO of a property
tax firm,

I mean, I started there as the only
developer and I left five years later

as managing the whole company because the
three owners wanted to step back.

And so I was managing, you know,

Total thirty, forty people. ~ so I've just
kind of been all over the place.

But these days when people ask,

I'm like, that's a good question,

man.

Yes.

Well, and it's funny because I think ~
Aaron Francis has a reputation.

And I say your name that way because the
reputation is attached to Aaron Francis

the entity, right? And Aaron Francis the
entity and Aaron Francis a person

are very related and there's a lot of
overlap.

But Aaron Francis the Entity is sweetheart
of the internet,

nice guy saying nice things with his nice
family behind him,

and which is all true, right? Those are
all true things about Aaron.

But I do think there's an element of
people can

People love to underestimate the nice guy,

right? Like as a

Yes.

as a fellow nice guy, I I I love that
that's actually something we can

at times take advantage of because people
underestimate kind of what we're capable

of doing. But it does lead people,

and I've never heard a single person,

and of course, granted, I only know like
three people who know that you're taking

this role, but I could imagine there's
some people who don't even understand

you just mentioned being a COO of a
company,

running the whole thing, managing 30 or 40
people.

That's not a part of the Aaron Francis
nice guy public image,

right?

No, yeah.

He's just

a sweetheart who teaches you about,

you know, things with his chalkboard in
the background.

And you know what

Mm.

I mean? So it's fun to me to see ~ that
there is a ruthless

is not the right word because that implies
any ~ unkindness.

There's a level of capability and ~ what
is the word?

You've you've got a lot of stuff in your
back pocket.

You have a lot of experiences,

you have a lot of capability that.

Are not a part of what you publicly
flaunt.

And you mentioned even you well,

how I talk about myself depends on how
much I feel like I need to impress people.

You know, when I first met

Mm-hmm.

my wife, she got so annoyed that I
introduced myself to a programmer

as a programmer everywhere. She's You're a
CEO of a multi-million dollar tech

Mm. Mm-hmm.

company, and you say I'm a programmer.

It's not the same thing. It's

like, well, you know, like what did they
need to know?

What do they need to see? So anyway,

I am very excited to see you in this role
in many ways,

which we can talk about in a second.

But when we're talking about the past,

I think it's very fun to think about the
fact that the public Aaron Francis
persona.

does not contain a large portion of what
is going to make you really good

at this job. And yet all of your public
reputation will also play a big role

in why you are going to be so effective in
this job.

Because you have curated a way that people
look at you that will help

you do marketing, but also publicly and
prior than privately,

you've developed a set of skills that will
also allow you to take

on a large corporate role to deal with all
the finagling,

the managing of people or whatever.

Mm.

So ~

I don't know where I don't think you need
to respond to that,

but it's just it's fun for me.

Well, I will.

Yeah.

and I I super appreciate all of that,

truly. I think ruthless is a word I would
accept.

I'm f I am totally fine with that.

I think the the combo words that I will
typically use is ruthlessly strategic.

I think

Mm-hmm.

there is a level of like operational
strategy that

I feel like I am constantly employing.

and you'll see this a lot more in like my
long form soft skills writing than

you will in just like tweets or anything.

And you see this, you see this some in
some of the ~ soft talks that I've given,

talking about basically, ~ you know,

if you were to boil it down, it's how to
win.

Like that's a lot of what this like put
your work out there,

see what happens, like keep going.

You know, I gave a keynote a while back
about.

Like five strategies for success.

And they're all just like these,

these very like incisive, you have to
operate in the world as it exists.

You have to understand what the rules are,

and you have to play by the rules,

even if they're stupid. And so I do think
like my experience in

a big four accounting firm, a public
company,

a small services firm has shown me maybe a
broader swath of like how.

companies operate, how people operate,

how ~ employees and bosses and executives
and so given our shared,

you know, programmer brain, we can apply
we can turn that and apply that

to like human interaction and be like,

~ okay, well, the people that continue to
win are the people that make their work

public. What if I just did that?

Yeah. Yeah.

And so

I I do feel like I have a lot of those ~
like shorthands or strategies that I've

accumulated over many, many years.

Yeah. ~ a shared friend of ours,

Caleb Porzio and I have talked about a lot
over the years,

especially when he first started at
Tighten about the distinction between

~ being good and caring and teaching and
educating and helping us with the
internet,

knowing it's going to help you succeed,

versus choosing that purely because it's
gonna help you to succeed.

And it's a really fine line of ~ am I
pretending to be a good person

on the internet because I know that's
gonna make me successful?

Or am I delighted to find overlaps between
my values of being a good person

and a kind person that also

Correct.

are strategic for the future of my ability
to put food on,

you know, my kids' table or whatever.

So

Yep.

Yep. Yeah. And I think, you know,

while we're here, we got all the time in
the world,

so let's talk about

Yes.

whatever we want. While we're here,

all of that comes from, and you know this,

we share a similar past, I remain,

but all of that comes from my Christian
faith.

Like I operate by a very strict moral
code.

And I'm not an idiot, right? And so like

Right.

two things, I think two things can be
true.

Like the the reason that I operate the way
that I do is because of my like

very deep seated beliefs. I also think
that like

it is better, even in a purely like in
even in a purely secular sense,

it is better to be optimistic and helpful
than cynical and a jerk.

Yeah. Yes.

And

like it is the best thing in the world
when what I believe

to be strategically optimal

And what I believe is core to my being are
the same thing.

Yep. Right. Yes.

Like that is

that's the best. I don't have to like I
don't have to choose.

And I believe

Yeah.

a lot of those things that I'm talking
about are strategically optimal

and also are firmly like deep seated in my
beliefs.

And so that ends up being really nice.

And that's one of the reasons why it's
great to be in a le position

of leadership in a community like Laravel,

because a lot of those things are deep
seated in the community's values as well.

Right. You could become the VP of
marketing somewhere else and believe that
those

things are all valuable, but those things
all be countercultural to

the space that you're in, but they are not
here.

Right. Like when people come from the
outside,

one of the things they go is, you all just
like helping each other.

You all just like help teaching each
other.

Yep, that's one of the reasons why this is
all gonna make

Yep.

sense here.

That's what I said last year on you know
at the opening thing of Laracon

is like this group of people is just a
just the humble builders.

All we want to do is build and make things
and we really well,

we argue about final classes and all this
other

Yeah.

goofy stuff, but we really

Just want to show off the stuff that we've
built and generally everyone's really

happy that you're building things.

And that is like that's really nice.

That's a great part about this community
for sure.

Yeah,

absolutely.

We have a new sponsor today, Flare by
Spatie which is the all-in-one error
tracking

and performance monitoring solution for
your Laravel applications.

You can find them at FlareApp.io.

And if you want to check out performance
monitoring,

you can check out Flareapp.io slash
performance-monitoring.

And we are also sponsored by Laracon AU.

Laracon AU returns November 4th to 6th in
Brisbane with deeper learning,

practical insights, and ideas that will
stretch how you think about building with

Laravel. Get your tickets now at
Laracon.au

okay. So we've talked about kind of your your experience

of coming through to Laravel, but I now
want to speak to the people who

do listen to Mostly Technical.

And I'm sure there's gonna be a mostly
technical episode about it,

but I still want to be the one to be able
to ask you.

You we have followed through a journey of
you ~ leaving your previous ~ role,

going out on your own together with a
business partner,

your business partner going and getting a
role.

So you're on your own.

And we're hearing

Mm.

you and Ian go back and forth about am I
going to be a database educator?

Yep.

~

fighting the the proposal to be an AI
educator,

finally coming around saying an AI
educator,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

building software with the intention of it
just being a part of the education,

and then the software taking off,

and now you're a software guy.

And even just as recently as what three,

four weeks ago, bringing on basically a
president of the company who's gonna

A full time employee, yeah. Mm-hmm.

be right, who's

gonna be your boss. And it was just like
it was the beginning of the

the the next arc of Aaron. ~ and

Mm-hmm.

I

I am so, so excited. I think you're a
perfect fit for this role and

I couldn't be happier for the Laravel
community.

But I am curious for you, did that kind of
call from Taylor feel like

a little bit of like a record scratch?

Like did you have to have some real did
you were you and Jennifer talking until

a hundred percent. Yes. ~ yes,

three AM, figure these things out,

you know?

of course. I mean, yeah, so for for the
folks that that don't listen,

I I hired a full time W two I am
responsible

for this woman's livelihood. And so this
was like two weeks before Taylor DM'd me.

And so she she and I worked together for I
wanna say five years.

I've known her for maybe eight or nine.

~

And she was just bored of property tax,

which hoomst among us.

Yeah.

and so she came to work for me.

After seven years at one company,

Yeah.

she came to work for me. And then Taylor
called and is like,

Hey, do you want a job? And I'm like,

brother, no. I I I don't.

What are you doing to me?

~ And so, you know,

I told Sam my ~ employees is Sam,

I told Sam right away, I was like,

Man, this happened, this is crazy.

And she was like, I just started here,

man. ~ but we're she and I are super good
friends.

And so I was just talking it through with
her.

And it started out with like, nah,

there's no way. ~ and then, you know,

the more I thought about it, I was like,

you know, I was like, This this is an
incredible opportunity.

Like, I have been in this world for
whatever we said,

a decade or more. ~ I've always thought at
some point it'd be nice to like

Go to the mothership, you know?

Yeah.

~

and it just never really worked out for
whatever reason.

And this felt like a real like this felt
like the one.

Like I don't think there would be you
know,

I I d I didn't wanna do DevRel or lead
DevRel.

But this felt like the thing I wanted to
do.

And there's nothing else, like I don't
want Taylor's job,

I don't want Tom's job. There's nothing
else that could be better than this.

Right. Yeah. You're not holding out for

some other role that's even yeah

No, like I'm not

I'm not trying to I'm not trying to one up
him.

I'm just like, no, that is the top.

Like that's where I want to go.

That's it. That's the one. And so,

you know, I I told Taylor my first
response to him in Dallas when we finally

got in person was like, Man, I just hired
a full-time employee.

And he said, ~ I know, we'll hire her too.

And I was like, ~ Okay.

That changes everything.

Well, if my Sam is taken care of.

That's the biggest blocker for sure.

And then there's the question of am I am I
giving up on my dreams?

Like that's a real question. ~

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

and it's a it's a hard one because,

you know, I've been doing this for two and
a half years by myself.

This is the the past two and a half years
is not the first time I've built

and sold things, right? But this is the
first time in a long time that I have

had no W-2, no health insurance,

Yes, no day job, yeah.

no nothing.

~

And it really does feel like it's kind of
starting,

like it's starting to click, it's starting
to work.

and so the question is, ~ am I am I giving
up on my dreams?

And I

Mm-hmm.

I had to wrestle with that. I mean,

honestly, like there's the internal,

am I letting myself down? And then there's
the more insidious,

like, are what are people gonna think of
me?

Like, are they gonna think I'm a failure?

Yeah. Yeah.

And

That part, that second part was easy to
write off after about an hour

or two of like, you know what?

It doesn't matter what other people think.

I don't freaking care. Like,

Yeah. Yeah.

I gotta put kids through college.

I gotta sleep at night. Like, if they
think I failed,

I I don't care. Like, I just I just want
to be happy.

Yeah. Yeah.

~

so that part was easy to write off.

The harder part was: am I letting myself
down?

Like, am I selling myself short here?

Mm-hmm.

And

It really came back that like

I I don't think that this is in any way

a a downgrade for like what I want out of
my life.

Agreed. Yeah.

Like

I don't think there's any I don't think it
is morally more superior

to sell software and videos versus go lead
an organization.

And so I kinda I kind of had to separate
like what do you want out of your life

and what are the like

what are the the contributing vectors to
that thing.

And I just kept looking at this job and I
was like,

this is in fact an upgrade. Like,

Yeah. I love that.

this is

and then of course there's all the
ancillary stuff of like,

~ I don't have to figure out where the
next big deal is coming from.

Like I don't have to go to another
database company and say,

give me, you know, a bunch of money to
produce a course on your thing

and then suffer over the course.

And so there's like all that ancillary
stuff of

Yeah.

You know, the thing you're leaving behind,

you know all of the warts and you're like,

I don't wanna I don't wanna do some of
that anymore.

But I think the real crux of the thing was
this is in fact,

I think in my story, a huge step up.

Like this it's just not I think on the
internet there's this whole like

~ like I am a rock,

I am an island, I made it on my own.

Yeah.

Like

you know, I am running a business and many
of our friends,

you included, run very successful
businesses.

And it's like, that's really cool.

~ but I just kept coming back to this is
what I want to do.

And it's like, is that enough?

Yeah. Yeah. Can that not be a good enough
reason?

I think that's enough. I think it is.

Yeah. So and then,

Yeah. Yeah.

you know, Jennifer was super sweet,

my wife the whole time, and was trying not
to like not to push me in

a direction I didn't want to go.

~ and her you know

you know how they can just speak to you,

you know? ~ her her like one sentence was,

~ I am a little bit worried about your
stress levels.

That was that was like her one sentence.

Yeah. That's cut to the core of you.

And yeah,

'cause you know, if you've listened to
mostly technical,

I've slept in the office a bunch of times
and still gotten up to go home

and take the kids to school. Like it's no
easy walk out here.

It's a hard it's a hard thing to do.

~

But all good things are hard in some
regards.

But after I took the job, she was like,

I am so glad. I wanted I am so thankful.

And after I took the job, I like,

you know, this was the same time the World
Cup was going on.

I like had many nights where I didn't even
open my computer after I got home.

And Jennifer was like, I haven't seen you
like this in five years.

Like, this is incredible.

Yeah. Yeah.

and so I do think, you know

I do think after having accepted,

I started to then realize a lot of what I
had been like putting myself through

the past two or three years. but the the
real crux of it was this is what

I wanna do, man. Let's freaking do it

Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. I love

that. And it's I I'm glad you mentioned I
was going to mention that thing about like

I imagine that working at Laravel you're
not going to be in the office

at Saturday night, you know, working until
you fall asleep with a laptop

and then wake up at five o'clock in the
morning to go home and pick people

up and take them to church. Like there's

Yeah.

a lot of, you know, and there's things you
share publicly,

but also just as your friend, like I've
seen you and I've seen you like stressed

and pressed. And you say, I know,

I know what I'm doing.

This is so that I can set myself and my
family up for the future.

And I totally honor and respect that
because we've all as builders

had those moments. But also coming out of
that moment is one of

the biggest graces and reliefs to say,

I can just watch this movie with my wife.

I can just watch this World Cup game.

I can just go to sleep. I can sleep in my
own bed or whatever.

I know. I know. And it's the whole

So ~ I'm delighted for you. Go ahead.

thing about like like obviously,

you know, I hope I'm not up till two and
then back up at five doing this job.

There will be a lot of crunch times,

but it's the whole it's like you
understand this more than anyone.

It's the I'm responsible for revenue and
costs and product

Yeah.

and marketing and admin and healthcare

Yeah. Yeah.

and ever and so

Like being able

Every buck stops with you.

being able to just scope my brain down to
this is the problem.

The problem is the marketing sphere.

That's it. We have

Yeah. Yeah.

a sales team. We have an HR person.

We have customer support. Like,

Yep. Yep.

and so I I will be able, and I think this
is a huge mental relief for me,

is I'll be able to dedicate all of my
brain cycles towards one problem.

Because now I I dedicate brain cycles to
all of the problems.

And it's like

Yes.

nothing is ever quite as satisfying as it
should be because I always feel

in the back of my head, like there's a
background process that just woke

up and is like, By the way, you haven't
done bookkeeping in eight months,

Yeah.

and I'm like, ~

F. And you know, and so I

Yeah.

just think the single mindedness is

Part of that mental relief. I don't expect
it to be easy by any means,

but I do expect to be single-minded and
there's like a great,

there's a great comfort in focus of just
being like,

this is my job. There are a lot of other
things here that are not my

job and I'm happy to weigh in on,

but those really aren't my job.

And I'm not gonna try to, you know,

grab territory. I'm just gonna do my job
the absolute

Yes.

best I can, and that's gonna be really,

really satisfying.

I love it. And one of the things that's
good about that is you're at

a senior enough level that you I don't
anticipate,

and I'm curious if you feel differently.

I don't anticipate you being in a point
where you're bored,

right? Like it's not as if like I have
this single minded focus on

No, I don't think so.

one thing and that's

all I do, and now I'm stuck doing that
same thing for the next ten years.

Like there's a lot of different things to
do.

Yeah. Yeah, I think both ~ I think in in
in two regards,

so I've I've already started trying to
meet and greet people inside of Laravel.

~ and so I've talked to maybe a dozen or
more people now.

Everyone on on my team and then,

you know, scattered people across other
teams.

And there's there's a lot to do.

Like in a company that is growing that
fast and that it's gotten that

big so quickly, there's a lot of ~

There's lot of internal stuff to figure
out.

And that's one place my Sam is gonna be a
huge help is she's the operations wizard.

And so she's gonna start with me in
marketing.

and so I think even just when you look at
like organizational behavior,

which is like the technical term for it,

the the operations inside the company,

there's a lot to be done. just even forget
like talking to the world,

just in

How does the team communicate?

Where do these things go? How do we make
sure that there's

no friction between handoffs? Like all of
those things.

There's just there are systems and
processes that need to be built out.

And that excites me. I I love a system.

but then you think about like what is what
is

the vision of Laravel,

the company? And the vision is grand,

as it should be,

Yeah.

and how do we get there?

Yeah.

Whoa,

that's a lot. We got a long way to go.

Like we gotta expand. We gotta we gotta
gain mind share outside of our,

you know, our true believers. We have to
care for the true believers

at the same time. We can't abandon anyone.

And so there's a lot to figure out
internally and there's a

lot to do externally. And so I don't think
I'll be

bored for many, many years. Hopefully I'll
I'll

I love that.

be I'll be ~ gainfully occupied mentally
and then I'll retire and that'll be it.

Yes. Great. Love that.

'Cause you know, we'll sell for the

cabillion dollars or whatever.

okay. So I think we can now finally
actually talk about the job.

You said ~ VP of marketing and community.

And one of the things you named here,

which I'm really grateful for you're
pointing at,

is that we want to A reach out to a whole
new audience and a whole new mindset,

and also B consider the existing folks as
a part of as as important of a part

of you know, the community as possible.

And and that's I feel like that's a hard
line to walk.

And hearing that your title has both
marketing and community in it.

Mm-hmm.

tells

me that there's some real intentionality
about that.

Can you talk to me about kind of what's
the purview of the role?

What have you been sent out to do?

And how does it being marketing and
community together in one,

what what does that reflect?

Yeah, totally. So, just to kind of give
you like a a map of the territory,

I've got I've got events,

so I've got, you know, Laracons,

Laravel lives, that kind of stuff.

DevRel, so that's all,

you know, public videos, Discords,

live streams, all of that. Demand Gen,

which is more like more on the paid side
of the house,

product marketing, content, all all of
that kind of stuff falls under

my domain. And so yeah,

the way that I'm like the way that I'm
thinking about the future

of Laravel is we have gotten Taylor

has done an incredible job basically
building a movement,

frankly. I mean when

Yeah.

you have tattoos and children named
Laravel,

it's a movement. built building a movement
building

Based on a few core beliefs. You know,

I think I'd be curious what he says,

but I I think pragmatism is one.

I think like ~ the the artisan ethos is
one.

Like we care, we care about things.

We care about the back of the cabinet,

as he likes to say, or the back of the
dresser,

maybe. and I think that has built this
incredible movement

of of people who are like,

I want to find a home to build things and
ship things.

And most of those people, I wouldn't say
all of them,

most of them would classify themselves as
craftspeople,

right? I'm a craftsman, I'm a craftswoman.

Like I care deeply about these little
things.

~ and that is our community, right?

That's what that's who's gonna show up at
at Laracon.

that's who that's who shows up on live
streams or these

These people who in their very core feel
like,

I am a I am an artisan,

I care about this kind of stuff.

~ I think that has gotten Laravel the
company incredibly far,

right? So like Laravel Forge for a decade
has paid Taylor's bills and more,

right? It's done great. And now

Yeah. Yeah.

Laravel Cloud is doing great. And so I
don't think there's any world

in which like I don't think

well, going back, I don't think
strategically or morally there's any world

in which like abandoning the core audience
makes sense.

I think it is a very and maybe that's why
he wanted to hire out

of the core audience, because like I feel
that in my bones.

Yeah.

but I just don't think there's any world
where that is strategically

or ethically optimal to like say,

all right, we're done. Thanks for all the
fish.

so, but that being said,

like.

the vision of Laravel is grand,

right? And so how do we take everything
that is great about this community

and make it legible to the outside world?

And I think that's a tough, like that's a
tough challenge.

~ and you also add in the fact that AI is
here and whether we,

you know, whether to what extent we use
it,

It will be used more five years from now
than it is used now.

Like, that's just a pretty that's a pretty
safe bet.

Say, say

Yeah, yeah.

what you will about like, should we read
the code or should you have loops

or graphs or you know, whatever.

I'm just making a broad assertion that
five years from now,

developers will use more AI than they use
today.

I think that's fair. So you

Yeah. I think it's fair. Yeah.

add all these things up of like,

~ we we have this group.

Of people that for whom we deeply care,

you know, the we'll call them the
artisans.

We have this broader engineering community
that we need to like make ourselves

legible to. And then we have these AI,

depending on what you believe,

headwinds or tailwinds, right?

We have AI wins one way or another.

And so how do we square that? I guess
that's a triangle,

three things. How do we square that
triangle?

~ I think.

I think one of the answers is ~ Laravel is
unique Laravel,

the framework, is uniquely positioned ~
for the pragmatic builder.

That has always been true. The artisans
are a subset,

they are a subset of pragmatic builders.

Yes.

So like if you have a if you have a
circle,

the circle of pragmatic builders
completely encompasses artisans,

but

Yes.

then inside the artisan circle is quite
small.

Right? It's just the community,

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

which is

a large community, but not compared to the
population of the pragmatic builders

in the world. And so you start to think
about like,

all right, well, Laravel is unique
Laravel,

the framework is uniquely positioned
because it's batteries included.

You don't have this vendor sprawl,

which is a word Taylor said that I loved.

You don't have this vendor sprawl.

~ the AI is very good at it because it has
all these cohesive opinions.

That's interesting. Laravel framework,

that's interesting. The community is
already a subset of pragmatic builders.

AI allows technically minded,

non-technical people to build
applications.

And so maybe there's a world in which we
start to speak to the outside world

as ~ Laravel's the best place to build.

Like full stop bar none. Laravel's the
best way to build applications.

Because we can uniquely tell the story
that from local development

to millions of requests a second,

you can just keep using Laravel.

Like now now cloud completes that story,

right? And so we can tell that story all
the way through with a straight face

and not abandon anyone who wants to still
classify themselves

as a ~ in the code with your fingers
artisan.

That's great. That's always going to be
important to Laravel the company.

You know that Taylor's never gonna give up
caring about the code.

But if we if we think about potentially
expanding

our identity to Laravel is the best place
in the world to build applications,

well then we can start to like we can
start to bring in,

you know, these no code refugees.

Like maybe they used Bubble or

Back in the day, ~ maybe they use lovable
now and they have to eject because it's

like I hit the wall that every vibe coder
hits,

they hit the wall. So we can start to
bring in those,

like those people from the different
communities,

right? And then there's another question,

I think, that is how do we how do we start

to gain credibility with the ~ the broader
engineering community?

So we've covered like

the the builders, the technically minded
salespeople,

operations people, marketing folks that
want to build internal apps.

We bring them all in. Laravel's the best
way to build applications.

What about, what about the FAING
engineers?

Or maybe Fang is dead now that
everything's AI.

What about like, you know, the open AI,

the all those engineers who look at PHP as
an adorable little hobby,

right? ~

Yes, yeah.

which, you know, if they haven't updated
their priors in 10 years,

is is fine. Like

I don't I don't bemoan them for for having
an outdated view about something that

they don't care about. That's totally
fine.

I think the challenge for us is how do we
how do we communicate

to the outside world that Laravel is not
this little like niche hobby shop?

Because we all know that, right?

Yes. Yeah.

We in the community know, this is this is
like big boy stuff.

and I think

My my tentative answer is ~ we take a lot

of the engineering capability that we have
internally,

which we have a huge amount of,

right? You talk about you talk about
managed queues,

you talk about scale to zero, you talk
about private cloud for goodness sakes,

you got MySQL that scales to zero now,

and it was just like a tweet, and it's
like,

hey, we have MySQL that scales to zero.

And I'm like, We what?

I think we take all of this engineering
credibility that we have internally

and we have to make it legible to the
public world.

And so what that strategically or
practically looks like is

we have our engineers, we potentially we
slow down how much we're writing

on the blog. That's fine. But if we put
out one piece a month

for the explicit benefit of gaining
credibility.

with other

Yeah.

engineers in other companies. I don't care
if not a single one of them ever converts

to a cloud customer. I really don't.

Yeah. Yeah.

But

what I want is people inside of Cursor,

inside of Planet Scale, inside of Linear.

I want those

Yeah.

engineers to read these blog posts because
they hit hacker news.

I want them to read these blog posts and
say,

~ shit, I didn't, I didn't realize Laravel
was doing this

Yeah. I had no idea.

stuff. What the hell? ~

Yeah.

And what that does is that raises Laravel
the company and by extension Laravel

the framework in the eyes of ~ credible
engineers at credible companies.

And there's been this long history of like
~ like kind

of kind of joking, kind of not like why
doesn't anyone take the PHP seriously?

And

I don't I I feel pretty neutral to all of
that.

Like I'm I'm not I don't care if people
think PHP is dead.

What I want them to think about is
Laravel.

I want them to think about Laravel is the
best way to build applications.

And Laravel, the company, is a serious
engineering organization doing serious

engineering work. And I think this is this
is my hope to tie it all together.

And then it's been like forty minutes that
I've been talking,

So good. It's so good.

so I'll stop. But

what I think is

All of these, all all of all of these
strategies raise

the tide for everyone in the Laravel
community,

Yes. Yes.

right?

Because if Laravel is, we'll say,

I would love 12 times a year, we'll say
six times a year,

Laravel hits the front page of Hacker News
for some deep engineering blog post.

Laravel agencies start to go up,

Laravel freelancers start to go up,

Laravel salaries start to go up.

And so I'm hoping that by like dragging
Laravel the company out into the light,

it pulls all of these people that have
been with us for fifteen years

and it raises the tide for all of those
boats.

Cause then then executives or CTOs or
whatever are reading Hacker News

and they're like, wait, what now?

You can just All right, well, let me see
if anybody in my network knows anybody
that

does Laravel, because this seems cool.

And then Tighten gets a call and I'm like

Yes, that's great. That's exactly what we
want.

And so that's kind of like the the soup to
nuts vision of how do we push Laravel,

the company out? How do we care for the
community?

How do we expand to builders without
losing our artisan identity,

but without putting up a wall for people
who don't identify as artisans?

They may be like, I don't care,

Yeah. Yeah.

I just want to build. How do we

how do we do all of that together?

Yeah.

That's the dream.

Yeah. That was an incredible forty
minutes.

I it wasn't forty, but it was incredible
thirty No,

Yeah, sorry.

no, it was so good.

No need for apology. one of the things
that you and I have is a shared vision.

~ and one of the reasons why I told you I
was so excited about you being

in this role is an understanding that as
long as people outside

of the Laravel ecosystem, and like we
could even say the broader PHP ecosystem,

but that's not that much bigger.

~

Until people outside of there understand
us,

we're always gonna be hobbyist in some
ways.

And we're not just hobbyist

Mm-hmm.

because there's massive international
companies using it,

but there has been an artificial cap on
the growth of Laravel.

I can say this as an agency owner because
hundreds every year,

hundreds of startups and scale-ups or

Mm-hmm.

whatever choose Laravel and are told you
can't do that because somebody

in the C-suite has a friend somewhere in
the valley that says PHP is outdated,

and you can't do it.

We have been artificially held back in our
growth for over a decade for that reason.

And I can't tell

Mm-hmm.

you how many thousands of conversations
I've had with people where that's

the concern. And so to me, if you could
just imagine the change

of what you're describing here,

just the change where the broader
programming world,

the broader startup world, the broader
builder world understands the value,

the capabilities, the capacity,

the modernity, the opportunity that
happens in this.

Really, really technically rigorous team
building both applic both

a like a infrastructure and then also
software that is modern,

that is batteries included, that is great
for like if that reputation changes,

that one thing alone will have a
transformative impact on

so many different components of our world.

And the thing is, you've been doing that,

right? Like I I I had tried years and
years and years ago to break into

the JavaScript world and Silicon Valley
and get all these things,

and I had mixed success.

And you have had probably greater success
than anybody other than maybe Taylor

in gaining a reputation outside of the
Laravel ecosystem and having them go,

wait, you can do that with Laravel?

Mm, mhm.

Wait,

I see what Aaron's doing, and he's a
Laravel guy.

And so for you to be the one in this

Mm-hmm.

position gives me hope because I'm like,

you get it, and you've already built those
reputations.

You've already built those networks.

You already have this understanding,

this the positioning there. ~

So yeah, I'm hyped. I'm so I'm so ready.

I'm like, just tell me, tell me where to
sign,

tell me what you need me to do.

And I hope that other people are able to
see that as well,

because I really think that this is a
pivotal moment in the history of Laravel

Well, that means the world to me.

And I think I think this is going back to
like strategies,

like I think it's it is normal for Laravel

and and PHP developers to be like,

this is really frustrating. We're s we're
serious and we shouldn't have

to prove that we're serious and we're real
developers.

And I I'm like, I agree.

It is frustrating. You know what?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

It doesn't matter though. We do have to
prove it.

We we just have to prove it.

And I think ~ I think it in some regards
is easy because we don't have

to we don't have to hire or ~ build from
scratch

the engineering talent inside the company.

I can just walk over to the infra team and
be like,

Hey, you're writing a blog post like

I I don't have to say, do something cool,

spend 10 years learning Kubernetes,

and then

Right.

come back to me and you're gonna write a
blog post.

I can just call Chris Fidao and be like,

brother,

Yeah.

I'm recording, we're gonna talk for an
hour,

and then Anna's gonna go write up the
first version.

Chris, you're gonna put the final touches
on it,

design is gonna make some graphs,

like the hard part is the 10,

20 years of engineering expertise to be
able to write something that is
interesting.

turns out the whole team already has it.

And

Yes.

so I'm just walking into this like,

I'm just walking in and I'm picking apples
off the tree.

Like I don't have to wait for anything.

And

Yeah.

so I think it if you feel if you hear hear
this and you're like,

we shouldn't have to prove ourselves,

I agree, but we do. We do.

Yeah. Yeah. So what are we gonna do with
that?

And we will. And so that's that's my
message

Yeah. Come on.

to to y'all.

That's good. it doesn't hurt that Laravel
the organization,

is also full of incredible communicators
and teachers.

Like who happen to be, you know,

architectural geniuses and these brilliant
creators.

But like you I mean, you just pulled Chris
Fidow out of hat.

Chris Fiddao has created courses and blog
posts and conference talks,

also happens to be brilliant and super
actively involved in

all the infrastructure stuff going on.

So I'm it's

Yes. Give

me give me Jess Archer at a at a click
house conference schooling people with

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

her cool accent. That

is worth that is worth so much more than
many

of the marketing efforts we could do.

Because you go to a click house conference
and you see Jess Archer

up there and she's putting on a she's
putting on a lesson and you're like,

Mm-hmm.

Where does where does this woman work?

And you're like, ~ wow. She works at
Laravel.

Yeah.

I've

I've heard of them. They must be they must
be serious.

That is what I want ~ in terms of like
gaining engineering credibility.

I want our already very smart engineers to
be more public.

Yeah. That's great because you bring
attention to some sittings settings and
you go,

crap, can we actually keep up with it?

And here you're like, Nope, we can keep
up.

You just bring the attention to the
framework,

bring the attention to the individual
engineers,

bring the attention to the organization.

And we're like, Yeah, it's it's gonna be
great.

It's good. People will be impressed.

And and it's nice to be in a position
where you don't have to worry about that.

It's not like,

Yeah.

well, I gotta reorg the entire team before
I can

No.

actually get to the point where I'm
confident.

No, I just need to bring the attention.

And I don't have to make anything up.

I don't have to like

Yeah.

it that that's such a nice like I don't
have to and I'm actually allergic

to putting marketing speak on stuff that
is stupid.

I don't have to do that. Like I don't have

Yeah. Yeah.

to try to convince people to care about
things that are dumb and or not
impressive.

We have enough cool and impressive stuff

Then we'll just work through that part
first.

Yeah.

And then

maybe maybe after a couple of years we'll
get I'll convince you that something dumb

is not dumb. But for now, I've got a lot
of not dumb stuff that we can talk about,

Yeah. Pull your material.

yeah.

I love it. ~ okay, so if everything goes

the way you hope, where is Laravel in a
few years?

And I think you've kind of already named a
little bit about,

you know, like the change in perspective
or anything like that.

Mm-hmm.

But like is there any guiding light,

guiding goal, guiding, you know,

metric you say if we're able to do this,

this is a success?

Yeah, I think there are I think there are
are a couple that maybe all point

the same direction. ~

Mm-hmm.

getting in getting our engineers to speak
at conferences that have literally nothing

to do with PHP or Laravel, that's a big
one.

~ that you know, that points a direction.

Getting engineering content on hacker news
points that same direction.

~ I think the more

like the more squishy stuff is the
conversations around like the like

you were talking about with those people
in the valley and the old Grizzin CTOs.

I think changing that conversation,

~ and maybe like a metric there is how
many YC startups choose Laravel.

Like maybe that that maybe that

Yeah. Yeah.

is a thing. but just kind of

Bringing it's it's just so strange to me,

bringing the public perception of Laravel
up to the current reality of Laravel.

Yeah, yeah.

~

and so, you know, there's a lot there
there's there are a lot of things that
point

that direction. ~ the actual like you
know,

I'm sure revenue go up is probably a good
number.

And you know, Tom Tom, if you're
listening,

Sure.

that's my number

for sure. Revenue go up.

but I think all of these like all of these
things point to Laravel being credible

outside of the artisans.

Yeah.

and you know, we've got we've I I've got
the team to do it.

Like my actual marketing team,

like I said before, I can't do what they
do.

They're telling me words, and I'm like,

sister, I don't know what that word means.

You have to back up.

Yeah.

And I I've told every one of them,

like, if you're if you're

hesitant or confused, I get it.

Like I came out of nowhere. I didn't I
didn't come from a marketing,

but but listen, I'm counting on you.

Like you do your job very well.

Cynthia hired a great team. They're just
all killers.

And so I I don't think it's gonna be I
don't think it's gonna be that difficult

to change the conversation. It's just
gonna take work and some time.

But the raw materials are unbelievable.

Yeah.

It's like we're America and everywhere you
dig there's a new raw material

and you're like, well, I guess we're not
running out of that anymore.

That's how it feels walking into Laravel.

It's like, I got tons of engineering
people I can pull from.

My team is all ruthless killers.

Like, this is gonna be great. Let's just
organize

Yeah. I love it.

some stuff and get out there.

I love it. I've said before,

but I'm incredibly excited to have you in
this role.

~ this call has only made me more excited
to have you in this role

and I imagine that there's other people
listening.

before we wrap, is there anything you want
from the listeners?

Is there anything you want them to have
running in the back of their mind?

Is there anything that you're gonna be

Yeah.

calling them to do? Or is it more just
like,

Hey, keep being who you are and we're just
gonna bring more light to

us being the great people we are?

Yeah, I really do think it is it is
continue.

~ I said I said this last year on on the
Laracon stage.

I've said this many times. ~ with you
know,

as a community member only, I've said this
many times,

~ that Laravelle is a very kind and
welcoming place.

~ and I I like believe that with all of my
heart,

and that's why I've stuck around for so
long.

And so my I guess my

charge to the community is to continue
doing that.

and

Yeah.

and maybe let's think about like,

you know, hopefully what I'm saying is
true that if,

you know, we can bring new people in and
we can gain this external credibility that

I believe we're owed, ~ then everybody's
everybody's lot in life improves.

From freelancers to agencies to W two
workers to business owners,

whatever. I

Truly do believe that that is going to
improve everyone's lives.

And so maybe my charge is like,

let's figure out how to get more
technically minded builders

who maybe don't share our love for
handcrafted curly braces.

Like, how how can we keep exactly what we
want and also welcome in

Mm-hmm.

A huge

number of people looking for a kind and
welcoming home and a pragmatic

way to build applications

Yeah.

and make their dreams come true.

Because what are we all doing

Yes. Yes.

except trying to better our lives?

And there's a huge group of people out
there who want to build something,

don't know the first freaking thing about
PHP,

but they've heard Laravel's good for
building.

And I think if we can welcome all of those
people in,

and I have no doubts that we will,

I think if we can welcome all of those
people in.

then we will continue to accelerate the
trajectory that we're on.

Yeah. ~ normally I end by asking if
there's anything else you want to talk
about.

I will a end with that, but that was such
a good charge.

I'm just like I should just sign off right
now.

Nah, we can end there. Yeah, we can end
there.

Okay.

It's fine, I got nothing.

That was ~ I'm inspired, man. ~ I really
appreciate you.

~ if people are fascinated by Aaron
Francis and want to keep up to date

on him and everything he's doing,

how do they follow you?

Probably best at X dot com the Everything
app.

I am Aaron A A R O N D as in Daniel
Francis,

Aaron D Francis.

And check out mostly technical,

~ links to all these things in the show
notes.

And check out mostly technical

if you want to hear me argue with Ian
every week.

~ man,

I do. It's one of the highlights of my
week.

I've just I love it. ~

we just argued

about pricing for thirty minutes on this
week's episode,

so enjoy that.

Can't wait. I can't wait. Well,

Aaron, I really appreciate especially a
couple days before Laracon especially

a couple days before you're starting this
new job.

Thank you so much for spending some time
to hang out with us.

Of course.

Yeah, it was my honor. Thanks for having
me.

All right, and for the rest of you,

we see you on next time.

Alright, my mouse is not visible.

I'm using this teleprompter and in order
for my camera not to be totally blown

out I have